Backscratching

in OCD4 months ago (edited)

Hello! It's me again, time to BRING DOWN ANOTHER COMMUNITY! evil laugh

In all seriousness, I hate these posts quite a bit and at the same time it's pretty lame that these things need to be addressed to begin with. You may have noticed that a lot of my recent posts have been about abuse towards proof of brain and the most recent changes to how pob should work; the EIP, meaning, 50% curation rewards, 50% author rewards and 25% downvote mana. There were other changes with the EIP as well but they're not as relevant to what I'm going to talk about today, except maybe the convergent curve, a.k.a. tax curve.

In a perfect world, some hivers create content, some hivers curate content, some hivers do both. There's nothing wrong with self-voting but if you do it all too often you're not making it fair to everyone else to also receive some rewards on their content.

Now let's talk about friend-voting. It's your stake, you should do with it whatever you want, upvote whoever you feel like and downvote whoever you feel like and it's perfectly understandable if you don't want to participate in downvotes at all, many barely even have the time to find 10 posts to manually curate. You all know I'm a proponent for manual voting, in 2 weeks it'll be 5 years of manual voting with a few days I may have missed during travels or sick days. So what is the issue of overvoting friends? Well, in short there isn't, but let me explain how or why it does become an issue relevant to the paragraph above.

We all have 10x 100% votes per 24 hours give or take. Upvotes are a great tool to make hive a great place, not everyone may have time to curate and look for new people to reward so many may delegate their upvote mana away in exchange for returns and knowing it'll be used for what they don't have time with, this is perfectly reasonable for content creators and influencers who got other things to do. The thing that people like to do, and may think they're geniuses for having figured it out but in the end it only comes down to 10x self-voting, is that they look for other similar sized stakeholders to votetrade with. Now of course just because I vote for @tarazkp now and then (although I haven't in a long time, sorry mate, been busy to check on your writing lately) and he may support me back with autovotes/manual votes it doesn't instantly mean we're vote-trading. If it happens in moderation it's alright, similar if you're close to people and trust that they're not going to abuse your autovotes and they may do the same to you it should also be alright, 10 votes per day is not a lot and if you have your girlfriend, family members, other friends all on Hive it's quite okay to constantly support them with your votes. When it isn't okay, though, is if the only reason you're supporting them is in exchange for a vote back. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.

Why? Well, there's this "service" created by trevon whatever his name was, but it doesn't even matter who created it, the fact he's not someone many like doesn't help, but either way. I haven't looked too deeply into how it operates, a week or so ago I didn't even know it was still operational, guess I've just been too busy with other things Hive. This service takes into account your upvote mana, amount of participants and then votes up with your account to everyone involved depending on their mana to practically get everyone 10x self-votes per day on 1 post.

Why is this bad? Well, it centralizes upvotemana so that everyone is only voting up themselves all the time. Whereas some of you may receive your 50% curation share + some post rewards from followers, friends, curation projects, other connections, these guys are technically just self-voting 10x per day disregarding everyone else not in the group. They're choosing to maximize ROI, create one or two posts per day (seems most just focus on that one post knowing the second one won't receive the backscratcher votes) and then go about their day without care if new users are being curated, deserving content is also receiving some love, retention, distribution, decentralization basically and if that's improving.

As I mentioned before, voting your friends manually or even automatically now and then is fine, but if there's no real connection between certain accounts except that they may have similar stake and constantly just vote on the same 9-10 people or have literally signed up for a service that does this for them in a more "clever" way, it goes against what proof of brain curation and the EIP stand for. It's really sad to see that there's over 480 accounts on the backscratcher trail on hive.vote: https://hive.vote/dash.php?i=15&id=1&user=backscratcher and so many big stakeholders as well who I personally have curated and helped grow over time. Just disappointing cause I know they should know better but choose to go full selfish at the cost of everyone else on the platform who aren't maximizing returns he same way and instead making sure distribution is better to make this one of the best distributed currencies in the world.

Found this image on google randomly searching 'back scratching hive', lol. source

Anyway, we're still kind of busy downvoting some of that 50% beneficiary scheme and some votes of haejin/rancho that constantly land on the same people who get to trending due to the same autovotes no matter the content, right now but would probably be something to tackle next to disincentivize as with linear curve coming up there's a risk this trail will gain popularity since the tax curve won't exist anymore and it'll be lucrative even for smaller accounts to participate in self-voting 10x per day through other people in the circle/trail.

Would appreciate to hear your thoughts on the matter and if you also feel that this should be disincentivized with some downvotes.

Thanks for reading and to everyone who's been an amazing example of how to use Hive properly without trying to take shortcuts or create schemes to enrich yourself at the cost of everyone else on the platform.


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I'm new and have done a lot of research on this, I know you can't do vote by vote, but I'm a person who doesn't have a lot of voting power, I just use my 0.01 to support various content that I actually like and are interesting. I have been able to see that always those who have more voting power, only give votes to friends or so to call them to those who have more voting power as well.
You know what I mean?
Because if you have more voting power you don't look for and support the new users that are making an effort, that's one of the things I've noticed, but I don't know if you have another rule that makes you vote friends for friends.
@acidyo I have been watching you and you are great, I have seen you do good work and look for ways to vote for new users, keep up the good work.

Yeah I resonate a lot to this — I too, don’t have too much power. I vote on all my content {which is okay?!} and also just on random content I read through out the day if I catch something interesting.

I am not that great about curating new content though; I do want to support new/old creators with great content.

Yes, there are users who have a lot of voting power and vote themselves with 100%, so what do they do? They are enriching themselves, now I go to the case of users who have little voting power, they are trying hard to make a good original content, and when they see, they have very little support and that makes them discourage everything.
So we want to grow, the future is in hive.

There's nothing wrong with them voting up their content but there should be moderation in how much of your daily votes you give to yourself. It's not like there's people posting more than 2 posts that take a lot of effort per day, usually over that it'll turn into abuse as they're just posting to vote themselves (if they have a lot of vp) and becoming quite farmy.

It just takes time, and this is what I mean, smaller people need to get curated for their content or other contributions. Not everyone is an author or excellent writer and that's okay, they can be active engaging like you're doing here or do other activities and someone should reward people based on that and the content. Not just look for ways to throw his votes on himself all the time by votetrading or other schemes. The point of curation is that everyone should partake in it, that's what it's there for, not for some to hop off of it through schemes while getting higher returns off of others sacrifices or just using it like it was intended.

When @partiesjohall said “the future is in Hive” — that’s how I feel too. I forget sometimes there’s this “scheme” to vote trade or up vote ones own content via five different posts made on the same day. To me — that’s not what it’s about here. I would like to financially contribute to this platform one day. Just because I truly believe in this method of content consumption; and until then I just post my poetry and things. It’s not some get rich plan to be on here, it’s about building and investing into both my art and a community of others. This post made me think. Thank you for the read @acidyo.

I appreciate the folks on here that see it that way as well. And keeping the public aware of the ethics of the community as a whole. Abundance is wonderful; great content is better.

I have been able to write my content regarding this topic, I have been able to observe that this topic is very interesting for many users of the platform, well, but can you believe that only few people and with great reputation could visit it? as a friend said, it is an interesting topic, but as a poor little fish has published it, no one will take it into account and you will support few people....

@acidyo I appreciate in the way you focus on hive, you have told me that I have made an effort and I am on this topic, thank you. Actually I am a fish that investigated as who says a lot I would say, about hive and that is why I am here, many will not take me into account for being small and not even have support, but I tell you, that this little one will continue to strive to grow and in the future of hive, I know that many will reflect on this issue and hive will be the best.

I have been away for a couple of years and only recently returned - I am finding the same thing... I am always on the look out for new people to follow that post things that interest me :)

Yeah, that's the problem, doing it always and not giving some voting power to new users or different ones. The worst is when they only do it to get a vote back in exchange. It's really not hard to delegate part of your HP to curation projects or just follow a trail of those or other random hivers you think will use it well, they found their way to that website that enables trail following but chose to follow one that's literally called backscratcher meaning they'll get a vote back on what their vote is worth to turn it into 100% self-voting pretty much. The 50% curation rewards is 50% for a reason, else it would just be 100% staking and no post rewards and we'd be just like any other DPOS/POS chain where content is irrelevant - like Steem's trending!

I created a trail account for Hive Believer on Auto-Vote, but I didn’t see it the way that you draw the picture here.

I created the account because I thought there might be people who have verified that they like my curations. This, to me, is akin to when someone likes enough same movies than we will trust their recommendations.

When I first found auto vote, I set up a handful of creator accounts and trails that I trust my votes to go to.

Very quickly, I paused almost all my auto votes (with a few exceptions for reasons of supporting others).

I think auto vote is great if I’m unwell or going on vacation, but I didn’t like the lack of control. I didn’t like my power falling fast before I got the chance to manually curate.I like cruising Hive to actually see what amazing content is created.

So even though I’m not using auto vote excessively and I think I’m only following one trail, I still have Hive Believer as a trail. I manually curate every day so those who follow my trail are not just voting for the same accounts again and over.

I don’t want people to follow my trail if they don’t like the content I curate, or don’t trust me. When I reblog I am very particular as to my choices; they must be things I personally like, I believe others will like, is good content in some way, the creator should have more exposure, it will benefit Hive, and most of all- will benefit the creator.

Maybe I’m seeing this all wrong.
I don’t think I am.

Perspective can change everything.

This isn't just about autovotes, there can be good autovotes, this is about the backscratcher autovote specifically as it only focuses on votetrading.

That makes sense. Seems that I hyper focused on a particular part of your statement and not the full picture.

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I’ve been using “activities” tab to try to avoid accounts that don’t appear to care about Hive or other people. It’s shocking what I’ve seen.

(Sorry for the misreading)

Always the same problem, no one wants to read and everyone wants to earn from 'creating'. Autovoters and curation trails have caused nothing but problems and stopped us growing from day 1.
In this case, I'm not sure how you can stop this other than checking every post that's gets created and voted upon by a trail and then DVing the post AND the voters for posting on it. Voting on shit posts and then claiming you didn't know you were supporting a shitposter cos you're on a curation trail doesn't wash.

There are also too many people who have an incredible sense of self-importance and sense of entitlement here that gets in the way of their rational thinking.

If you use an auto voter in whatever form, this does NOT remove your responsibility for what you are voting for and you should be prepared to accept that fact or accept consequences,

Autovoters and curation trails have caused nothing but problems and stopped us growing from day 1.

Well that's not fully true, there are good autovoters (mostly spread out over many authors) and trails that follow curators who attempt to spread the votes wide and well.

But yes, people need to be more careful, I feel many will just pretend they didn't know with this case as well although it seems quite self-explanatory of what they got themselves into which is pretty sad seeing some people you've curated in the past on there now that they've grown enough for the self-votes to matter.

The thing is, people care too much about their vote size and so if they follow a curation trail and/or have an autovoter running, they are less likely to vote on someone who isn't on that list for fear of dropping their voting threshold below its autovoter cut-off point. This effects smaller and new users significantly more as they are the ones who NEED the votes more to encourage them and keep them here.

I hear complaints and moaning about the GEMS community, but whatever your thoughts on making spiders out of paperclips, they are all solid posts that get voted up. Real effort goes into most of them and they get retention. Yes, it's a bit of a closed shop in Venezuela but their model seems to work quite well.

The other big problem I see is the apathy over using a downvote. People just daren't as if a problem doesn't concern them directly, they don't care and are worried about retribution when the person they downvote has more stake than them. Again for the resource reasons above, if they do downvote, they only seem to use their free votes.
I'm not sure what the answer is except relying on the few people who try to do what they feel is right and trying not to reward users who aren't community-minded.

As for my comment on too many people having a sense of self-importance and entitlement, just to qualify this, I'd suggest that 95%+ of users here would make nothing if they were trying to be 'content creators' on any other platform, and ought to be showing some gratitude towards the people who give them votes and allow them to have a 'career' on Hive.
The other 5% need looking after and thankfully, this top-quality seems to get noticed and rewarded as such, mostly. We need these people here because apart from the social media angle, good creators attract curators and casual readers.

You take care and get outside for some fresh air once in a while! I always imagine you nailed to your chair staring intently into a screen 24/7! It worries me!

PS Did you see @ats-david's #dictatorforaday challenge? Have a look, I'd love to see your views!

Thank you for sharing this with us @acidyo. I misread the title at first and thought it said back stretching (I think mainly due to my back messing about this morning lol)
Anyway, I have learnt a lot from this post, and it's important we know how this system works, and it's important that others get a chance too.

Enjoy the rest of your week! Matt

It seems this back scatch ring has been around for a long time, and to be honest I'm surprised it's lasted this long. I'm also surprised to see quite a few familiar names on it.

Ok, the landscape may have been different a couple years ago, and users were all starting off, eager to build up their account using whatever means available. But we've moved on since. We're a much better and more mature platform and community. What was acceptable two years ago isn't anymore. These 400+ people on the trail need a reminder they're still on it, and it's not ok nowadays.

However, I find it hard to believe they don't know they're circle jerking. Maybe just playing ignorant? Afterall, why stop abusing when no one is complaining? Integrity probably is worth nothing in their eyes.

I'm finding it really hard to care about peoples issues with layer 1 upvotes now that we have layer 2. Layer 1 is even more broken with 50/50. Its going to get worse. Wait until more and more crypto millionaires flood into here for easier profits, current whales and culture will eventually be diluted to where you cant do much to stop it.

Only way to stop all this nonsense is getting rid of hive and HD completely. Other layer 2 projects have way better and more fair tokenomics. Steem was a shit show for voting and hive is a continuance of the shit show.

I fail to understand how you can compare Hive's voting to Steem but I'm glad there's L2 solutions for the people many think shouldn't get a piece of the L1 reward pool.

In terms of who holds the power is still almost the same, so the upvoting/downvoting is similar if not almost the same. There are some better projects on Hive, Hive got better slightly because a few of the abusive whales powered down and dove into BTC and other cryptos(and rightly so). Hive/Steem whales have always disadvantaged themselves by being whales on here. I wouldn't be caught dead with a big stake in Hive because the growth isn't in Hive it's in Layer 2s.

The big thing that is allowing progress to happen is hive-engine and that could have been built on any DPOS fork of steem/hive. Layer 2 has a big opportunity to make Layer 1 rewards obsolete with multi token earnings per post, PoB + Leo + Pal + X + Y + Z. The more generalized communities like PoB and Pal come up the more possibilities.

I've seen posts on PoB that get 100x what they earned in Hive, and the same happens on Leo all the time now. Things are changing and I think that's good. Layer 1 is controlled by the current whales and not much will change, it's systemic and entrenched, it's extremely conservative. Layer 2 has so many cool things happening on it and new projects, that's where all the growth will be and Hive will just be "the chain all the cool Layer 2 stuff happens to be on". Which of course is good, we need a base layer. Ethereum being a base layer and all the cool stuff is Layer 2 for example.

Hive was down to 10c for a long time, things could've easily changed. It's existed for 5 years now and so many who were minnows and just earned their way to orca or whale level so far. Obviously a new token coming out depending on its distribution will change things around but I wouldn't really say Hive distribution is bad or that it's just the same whales in control of everything and if they are then that's their power they decided to hold or grow.

Anyway I'm not against L2 at all, hopefully there's some better alternatives down the line than having to pay 1% fee both ways.

Looking at the major holders of POB, I will be very surprised if it lasts. The thing with token price going up is that it requires buyers, not sellers.

Call me old fashioned, but self-voting has always struck me as unethical. This is especially so on a social blockchain and where there is the hope/dream for a caring and supportive community. Alas human self-interest often outs as you have so clearly illustrated.

In my nearly 5 years here, I have learned (the hard way) not to weigh in on the politics very often. This,however, is an issue that has always bothered me. Thanks for highlighting it.

I think it if it is not abused, it is okay (i.e., 1 max self-upvote/day). Although it obviousy gets more complicated when one has a large stake. But I can understand the reason for being against it

Appreciate that. It's a personal view, and I take your point about abuse.

Thanks for your take on this. It's valuable to see what different people think. I'm fairly new to Hive and have been reading lots of How-To articles on how it works and best practices. It can be head-spinning sometimes, and what sounds like a good idea to one person is bad form to another.

Well written @acidyo! Another aspect that bothers me is the motivation. I find there are two groups. Those just after the crypto. Then there are those that would like to fill their wallets but focus on engagement in a community. I spend as much time reading and commenting and getting to know new people as I do on an actual post. I appreciate the interaction and the community mind of those who have a similar idea. Even if our interests differ the engagement is what is important. Upvotes or not

Hard to keep track of all of these schemes to avoid. Any central "list" where I can find them?

As I mentioned before, voting your friends manually or even automatically now and then is fine

Well, isn't this a dilly of a pickle. Speak and expose my cards, or stay quiet and hope they don't come for me next. My cousin and I are trying to get a community off the ground and are providing daily worldbuilding prompts and it basically REQUIRES us to self-vote our own shit. And even then, we've been at it for 2 weeks now and have had 1 other participant so far. (A community that has 719,000 users on Reddit and an extremely active discord server) A community that by all accounts should do great on a platform like this, where you get to monetize your creation from concept to finished product. At what point do we give up? When we decide to call it quits or when someone like yourself notices our "self voting" and decides to shut us down?

I fully admit I gave up on manual curation a LONG time ago. Nothing I want to see on the chain ever ends up trending so why wouldn't I opt to maximize ROI over what I want? Trending is all the same content, day in day out. Chain talk, low effort garbage, and conspiracy theory bullshit. (ever wonder why 3speak won't be the next youtube? I don't. Nobody wants that alt-right bs shoved in their face.) and of course, more chain talk And I don't find your answer of "downvote more content" to be helpful. We all know how vengeful and spiteful people are in general, let alone when you mess with their toys. If you piss in their cornflakes they're going to piss in yours back.

Do I want to risk a $2 auto-downvote when I can't even give a $0.25 downvote?

Nay nay.

Do I want to risk a $2 auto-downvote when I can't even give a $0.25 downvote?

I couldn't agree with you more! Downvoting for the smaller accounts is very risky, so I watch my steps carefully aswell.

Nothing I want to see on the chain ever ends up trending so why wouldn't I opt to maximize ROI over what I want?

I completely understand this aswell. Trending with the whales upvoting eachother is setting a bad example for the rest of us. Even if you want to do better, you can't make a change without a shitload of Hive Power in your back pocket. I understand how you can get tired of trying to do the right thing, while every single day you see so much greed, making your efforts feel in vain.

I keep trying to find a good balance between making this worth my time and effort, and trying to fight injustice. For me, downvoting is too risky, so all I can do is upvote good posts and not forget the lower rep accounts.

At what point do we give up?

At what point do you start? There's a potential market of nearly one million, according to you, and they exist on the outside, elsewhere on the internet. Why would you sit here on Hive expecting the same amount of interest seen elsewhere on the internet? It's your project, therefore it's your duty to attract interest. It's not the responsibility of some random current Hive stakeholders to even be interested in, whatever it is, you're doing. It's your responsibility to show what you're doing, to that community on the outside. If you're not interested in attracting consumers to your own product, at all, then I'd say you should have given up before you even started. Attract some outside money to your project. I'm sure, out of nearly one million, at least a few would be interested in monetizing, whatever it is, they're doing on reddit. But that money doesn't grow on trees. Attract some support and you'll do fine. The support is not a given though. That's what so many here fail to realize. So many quit and claim the platform is flawed or broken, yet never once tried to attract any outside interest to what they think is something great and many would enjoy.

And sure, I'll agree with the comments you made about the dull content. Dull content and the comment sections where everyone talks about how broken they think Hive is is so goddamn boring.

We have tried to attract outsiders. At the first mention of "crypto" we get the usual "waste of electricity" "scam" "bunch of alt-right losers" stuff.

And yes, we try to point out that HIVE is POS and not wasteful POW, but they don't care. They already threw the baby and the bathwater out a few years ago. I think most people have already made up their minds on crypto and are either full-time in or full-time out.

Gotta be honest though, the drive for us isn't the money. It's the community. Something that is totally lacking on HIVE. Used to be a thing on Steem, but not anymore. Yeah, we have communities, but there's no communing in them.

Leave the crypto part out. Treat it like points or something. I find that helps when explaining to those not into crypto, which is most people.

And I wouldn't say community is lacking on Hive. But it is becoming fractured, segregated. Some tribalism kicking in where communities are bashing Hive in order to make their second layer tokens look like the better option. Stuff like that. Kind of annoying but what can you do...

So if the money isn't what you're looking for, I'd say don't worry about attracting votes and support for now. Focus on moving those people over, and place very little focus on the monetization factor. Treat that part like a bonus. Of course, with no incentive to move, there's no reason to pick up and move even a fraction of the million person market. When it comes to emulating an existing community here that works elsewhere, probably better to leave it where it is if they get everything they want out of it. Hive is unique so the communities require a unique approach. What works there won't work here no matter how much folks try to force it.

My previous comment was more about if my cousin and I fall under acid's umbrella of bad back-scratching since by the nature of how communities are ranked the higher the rewards, the better the ranking. People name communities rather randomly so I don't ever try to search for a community, I just load the list and start scrolling, looking for the community I want and possibly joining a few others in the process.

It would be a shame if we got caught up in that, but I think we don't really fall into that category because our goal is to get other writers and ttrpg-ers posting to give our updoots to.

I gotta get my twitter game on again, but I feel censored. I used to get a lot of likes, then I mentioned crypto stuff like NFT's and now I don't get any likes...

I see you're a northerner. I get chills thinking about the great opportunities HERE, for those people. Where the fuck else they gonna find work? And the arts, crafts, and culture; it all deserve a home and rewards. But damn they can't be acting like five bucks per post is nominal. Imagine all these folks sharing, holding earnings, building a community...and in FIVE YEARS... living a life never once offered, because they made it for themselves. Imagine that. Could help take northern poverty out of the equation. Get them back on track, sharing, as they did for thousands of years.

Not going to lie, one of the largest problems facing the Inuit population is a severe disregard for how much education improves your life. They'd honestly rather just be left alone to chip a hole in the ice and try to stab a few seals. But the modern age rolled in and went "Fuck you, stone age to tik tok in 100 years or less! Let's go mother fuckers." That and the stigma of school because of the way the Native American population was treated in Canadian schools, means a VAST portion of the population don't get a grade 12. And even fewer get secondary education. Lots of people living off government handouts. This leads to a severely small portion of the population willing to spend time writing blogs about Inuit culture on any blockchain.

And this is most definitely a societal problem that they have to overcome. Some are openly racist to our white asses being up here teaching their children, but refuse to step up, complete their schooling, and become teachers. Something the GN makes PAINFULLY easy for them to do. All you need is a grade 12 then you just have to pass some bullshit training course and boom, you're an elementary teacher making well over 100k a year. But only if you're Inuit 🙃

Shit. I don't even bother with communities. That was never something I wanted, personally. I adored the chaos and stumbling into random shit I never knew I'd like until I liked it. Put in a place where all the walls are the same color and I get bored, fast; but that's just me. Most around me need to be structured and led, by something, so I get it. That's people.

@acidyo ain't the big nasty. Dude won't fuck with you if you're being legit. Dude looks for bunk, makes himself look like a goddamn asshole for giving a fuck, then wants to do something about it to boot. He means well. I don't 100% agree with everything dude does but that's life. Just glancing at your shit, I'd say you're safe. Dude is looking for straight up rip off artists and bunk. Don't listen to those fucktards that make this kinda shit all out to be villainous. You ain't seen nothing, man. I been here the whole time. Nobody is picking on or taking shits on anyone without good reason.

And yeah that social media world is nasty as fuck. Play their game. Trust me. Don't have to like it. But play it. Lay off the 'crypto will save the world' nonsense. Find a way to bring them over, like anyone would, anywhere else on the internet. Crypto is only a barrier when people throw up the walls man.

Well, there's this "service" created by trevon whatever his name was

The man never gives up. Even before joining the old chain 4+ years ago, I knew him as a YouTube shill for a shitcoin.

He didn't even have any stake left on his @lordgod account yet still his trail/genius innovative idea is still living on, sad.

What are some good ways to be voting? I have found that using lists on PeakD (such as Favorites) makes it a lot easier for me to keep up with new posts that I know I will like.

What should those who are on this trail revert to doing? I’m talking about the few who consistently post something quality and power up their rewards instead of dumping. How could they be a better community member, while also not feeling like they receive too little for their own creative projects?

It’s difficult to have a balanced perspective of what is considered taking too much from the reward pool. Some places $3 is a lot. Others $50 isn’t much at all. I think that a lot of people want to be successful and most of us wish to be in a better place than we currently are. I agree that one should not take take take and never give. Maximizing profits is something of a human instinct, the same can be said for helping others. An equal effort makes sense when it comes to rewards/rewarding.

These days a lot of people have been feeling like Hive/crypto in general is their last opportunity ever to seize their own life again. Many are trapped where they are and are clamoring for a way out. I understand how we can get lost in the sauce and scour for earnings. We cannot let this disrupt the growth of where we lay our foundations.

The way I see it, the shitposters on this trail can burn. The ones on the trail who have something to offer the world and also want Hive to succeed should find a way to continue support one another. This must be done without suffocating our chances of proper distribution.

My personal position. I want to be able to rely on my content and curation as a a viable income stream. I want others to be able to do the same. It makes me happy seeing some random person, perhaps from another country, have their life changed by Hive. It also makes me want the same positive things for myself and those close to me. I don’t think we are greedy if we want the best for ourselves and our families.

I am damn proud of my work each and every day, just like many users are. I think that I and countless other individuals deserve to be rewarded for what we do. The question remains... how much & can we do it without forgetting the little guys?

The ones on the trail who have something to offer the world and also want Hive to succeed should find a way to continue support one another.

Maybe start by getting off the trail and genuinely support one another instead of going through a backscratcher circle berk ring?

Your comment above is really valid and makes sense, to the point that you make it sound like back scratching has got nothing to do with you.

I'm all in to make this a better place. I loved the premise of Steem and was happy to Fork over, and grateful that there was a windfall to land on. That was a huge good deal for everyone and I actually thought people would use it to grow Hive.

But, it was their stake, so be it.

But, back to you. I'm with you.

To be completely honest, I'm not really ready to get back into the drama side of the platform yet. There's so many things at play there. Basic human nature, as in greed, will always be apparent and I can understand people are scared to downvote, because of retaliation. Personally, I'll watch my downvoting habits, because in three weeks, Hive is all the income I have. One or two whale downvotes and my account reputation is finished.

In an ideal Hive world, we'd all vote for good quality content and help out our friends along the way with what we have left. And we'd all band together against abuse of the platform through downvotes. It's just that, whales upvoting and downvoting is what makes the real dents. If I downvote a post voted on by haejin, no one will notice.

I just wish the big Hive holders want whats best for the platform in the long run, which is quality content getting rewarded. It's good for their wallets in the long run aswell, but people aren't great at long-term thinking. That was true a couple of years ago with Steemit and it's still true now. The big people upvote eachother's cat pictures and the rest of us try to write good content and hope for whatever scraps are left. With the horrible behaviour of big bag holders, what kind of example does that set for the rest of us? I would never approve of simple vote trading, regardless of the quality of content, but I kind of just see people following bad examples. The less fortunate will try whatever they can to get their share of the scraps that are left over after the whales have had their vote-sharing fill.

Personally, I'm sticking to voting for people I follow and checking out New for good posts with hardly any rewards and people with lowish rep. Besides that, I'll continue to get frustrated when posts I worked hard on get atleast 10 times less than one simple cat or food picture. It's how it works in the real world and it's how it works here. It's not fair, it doesn't feel right or just, but what can I do aside from trying to set a good example myself.

It's how it works in the real world and it's how it works here. It's not fair, it doesn't feel right or just, but what can I do aside from trying to set a good example myself.

I couldn't agree more...

Damn 5 years. I am 3. I feel old.

Don't! Stay true to your name!

ahahaha YES your right, i'll own it!

Great advice my friend. Upvoted and reblogged. I've been out of the circuit so long, I have a few followers that upvote but still looking for backscratchers. Lol. Keep up the good work.

I think I am a more 50/50 supporter! first i don't have friends on hive! only acquaintances would not trust anyone behind a screen privacy! I admit I have votes from people known here automatic! but ... Before doing that I study their accounts, I see that they publish whether it is OC or not ... But on the other hand, I know MANY communities that vote among all those people and that is disgusting for me! BECAUSE? I take a selfie ... and I totally receive the same amount from someone who tried hard ... And here the originality is lost! in short 50/50 but you have to be smart to use both parts! hugs!

The politics are a bit much for a small fry like me - I just upvote things that interest me! I'm trying to establish myself back on here after being away for a long time and it's really hard :)

The landscape has changed a lot in the past couple of years. Whales amd curation guilds are all after quality content, and bid bots don't exist anymore. Quality and engagement is key, so communities are a great way to connect with others and build up your network.

Thank you for the suggestion :)

Ewwwwwwwwwwww what a weird main image.

Not as ew as what the users on the backscratcher trail are doing.

Well...about fairness...I would really like to know your stand on the same users/hivers on the trending/landing page of Hive!
Been checking for nearly 3 months straight...and it's nearly the same people up there...do we only have 6-7 good content creators on the platform?
And what's more funny...a lot of the writings/contents are just re-wordings/copying from 'Decript' contents!
😂😂😂

We need more like you to get the place filled with some fresh air, where it feels good scrolling and reading posts made for the general interest of the platform...not simply to suck the automated votes! 😉😉😉

Fuck me dead that was some intense reading there.

Had to pause everything to make sure I understood what you are saying.

And I am still feeling like:

tenor (3).gif

happens to me too on every single one of his posts LOL good to know im not the only one.

I'm not great with wording and too often just freewrite and my thoughts get kind of splattered all over the place. I'll try to do better. :3

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Support the HiveBuzz project. Vote for our proposal!

Would appreciate to hear your thoughts on the matter and if you also feel that this should be disincentivized with some downvotes.

I would rather prefer the incentives shared with good behavior, may be that will help to establish a positive culture. How about doing a 1000$ lucky draw each week, for those who are good using a Wheel decide ?

I've been on the chain for +3 years these back scratchers were the reason why i didn't grow and why i quit for about 7months but in the end i realized that i should be here if i want to fix this thing.

I have some few people here whom i trust and i give them my auto vote because they will never let me down and because I'm always busy with creating content and painting so yeah when i have some free time i make sure to take a look at some new comers content even that my upvote will give nothing remarkable.

To be honest you are one of just few hivers that care and feel jealous about this chain and want to help the weak content creators most of stakeholders are selfish and love to scratch backs and get rich in easy way

I thought he was ded.

There are a lot of these trails still going around in the background, but I am unsure if they are active or "active" and just running on autopilot, where most people don't watch it.

Some of the larger delegators to Jerryfuckface who "curates" and powers it down.

image.png

I think it's not new but even though it's not new. People or Users won't listen. They are too selfish of themselves to think they have all the privileges. This is not bad as well but if we're considering the future of hive. We should do the fair playing. If there will be no supporters in the future. I'm not sure if there ate still people to support too. If this will happen, I don't see a future in the hive.

Good opinion about this matter. Well, I've been reading your posts about supporting and I'm grateful for that because I received your whale account support sometimes.

Thanks for reading and to everyone who's been an amazing example of how to use Hive properly without trying to take shortcuts or create schemes to enrich yourself at the cost of everyone else on the platform.

Aye!!!

Mhnnn I just think doing things the right way is just a lot easier...

It’s a tough one I am just starting to comprehend how the voting works. A great system for highlighting quality posts . One of the attractions of Hive blogging being currency gains lead to abuse of the vote for personal gain, these voters are sadly missing the point of community. If they spread there attention to a wider group and make new friends, expanding the community and binding it. This attitude will lead to greater gains personally and financially. It is wonderful to have members of the community that address these issues you are highlighting . Thank you for your resolve . I am just starting to learn about hive , and I resolve to raise awareness about the true benefits of community driven sharing .

Oh no....guess its time to to check my hive.vote and make sure I'm not unintentionally doing bad stuff there too.... I don't think any of my hive.vote setup is doing vote trading. But I honestly have no idea.

I came back to HIVE earlier this year, and it was still pretty confusing to me. I never really got the hang of STEEM back in 2018/19 so coming back to HIVE was even more confusing. A lot of my curation trails and delegations and witnesses voting were setup when I had pretty much no real clue what I was doing within this ecosystem. I was just flying by the seat of my pants.

I have never self upvoted on HIVE. I have followed curation trails that have then upvoted me from time to time however. Felt weird to see my own upvote but once I figured out the me -> curation trail -> back to me pipeline... well I still don't really know how to feel about it.

Anyways, looking forward to more of your posts @acidyo about how I'm being an ass on HIVE without even knowing it lol

Personalmente, me limito a votar por las personas a las que sigo y a buscar en New para obtener buenas publicaciones sin apenas recompensas y personas con poca reputación. Además de eso, seguiré sintiéndome frustrado cuando las publicaciones en las que trabajé duro obtengan al menos 10 veces menos que una simple imagen de gato o comida. Así es como funciona en el mundo real y así es como funciona aquí. No es justo, no se siente bien o justo, pero ¿qué puedo hacer aparte de intentar dar un buen ejemplo yo mismo?

Personally, I stick to voting for people I follow and scouring New for good posts with hardly any rewards and people with little reputation. Other than that, I will continue to feel frustrated when posts I worked hard on get at least 10x less than a simple cat or food image. That's how it works in the real world and that's how it works here. It's not fair, it doesn't feel right or just, but what can I do other than try to set a good example myself?

Es desesperante ver que uno se esfuerza por crear un buen contenido y no ser valorado y solo vez que varios post con casi nada de contenido tienen exageradamente mucho valor en votos 😔

Saludos @acidyo.

Al leer el título y ver la imagen de la portada de la publicación, mi imaginación no tuvo nada que ver con lo que plasmas en tus líneas, sin embargo, quedo muy bien el nombre para la idea central del asunto, y por cierto nada más alejado de la verdad en estas acciones y como puede verse desde otra óptica.

He recomendado Hive ampliamente a mis conocidos, siempre bajo la premisa de contenido de calidad y originalidad, sin embargo, esto no amarra a que nos votemos entre todos con cada publicación, pero lo que no hago, por lo menos en nuestro caso, es votar negativo, prefiero dejar un comentario con el punto de vista de como se puede mejorar, siempre desde el respeto y desde una critica constructiva, porque ha pasado que recibo votos negativos pero no algo con explique, y aunque asumo que es un voto manual o automático, es natural que no a todos les guste un mismo contenido, por eso existe la diversidad en general, sin embargo, es bien recibido un consejo o tips para mejorar en la plataforma, entonces esto es lo que hacemos y con suerte, lo han hecho con nosotros también.

Ahora en el caso de las personas que se votan solo así mismas, concuerdo con que una vez más que otra no debe ser mal visto, sin embargo, el votar conscientemente por los usuarios que se están integrando y apoyarlos un poco es algo que le da aún más valor a la plataforma, pero las emociones humanas en ciertos casos pueden cegarla ética de solidaridad.

Excelente posts y muy acertada tu punto de vista, éxito!

It's really sad to see that there's over 480 accounts on the backscratcher trail on hive.vote: https://hive.vote/dash.php?i=15&id=1&user=backscratcher and so many big stakeholders as well who I personally have curated and helped grow over time.

Way worse, there is only one account in acidyo's downvote trail! This has to change!

https://hive.vote/dash.php?i=15&id=3&user=acidyo&type=2

Also I agree with your post and the post before that and can only say: Commence the downvotes!

I always try to give 100 persent upvote to people to grow themselves. I am new here and many things I can't understand. But I am learning and there are many people around here they help newcomer like me and I'm grateful to them. Its truly decentralised world. But sometimes people give down vote without reading the contents. I'm not fully against of down voting. But people who gives down vote they should mention the reasons. And that will be helpful to new hive bees to understand what mistakes they have done.

At least they reads your posts 😛

(#deersir 😂)

I think some of the issues in the above problems have been discussed previously. I consider this part of the process until we come up with a system that makes every piece of quality get the curation it deserves even if it's not recognized by the whale. Thank so much @acidyo.

I landed here to see what's the craic with the downvoting. Am learning a lot for a newb. I gues I'd be classed a s a content creator and that's what I as invited here for and I like the ethos, not too bothered about the money as I've never been paid before for my work so no biggey but to suddenly be put on a downvoting list is a bit much. You mention POB. So what's the problem with them? Is this a cliquey hive gang thing going on here? Genuinely interested.

Here’s an idea. What if we made it so votes gained a tiny multiplier, for each unique person you vote for, with a bit of a cool down.
That way rather than being on the attack with these people gaming the system, we simply make it more profitable to behave in the way we want to encourage. Otherwise we’ll be on an endless battle with ppl just gaming the system, when we could be converting them to proper members of the community.

I am a newbie and I know nothing about how it works. I am a traveler with a camera and phone and write about anything beautiful that I find worth posting here. In fact, I have never noticed if anyone supported me repeatedly. I just check my notification and go to show my gratitude. No, I am not in favor of undue support as a ring member. The truth is, I am still learning the ropes. Thank you for your support.

Easy fix mate but no one will do it because all the big stacks make the rules.

You need a top end curve, this destroys auto votes in one shot. We have a bottom curve which literally stops nothing but not a top end curve that would actually reduce and prevent all the issues you're fighting.

If you're big enough you can game the system, so why not stop it?

I get hives two times a year. we dont know why. Mom said it is allergy but I don't know what I'm allergic to

Just wanted 2 thank you for your consistent support👍😊

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Trevon James is anything but a victim.